This is a reposting of a comment I made on inWorship’s blog about the current state of the “church.” I reposted so as not to hijack Brent’s blog:
I’m afraid you’re not sticking to the question. I am certainly on board with Scripture precepts of Biblical leadership, communal living, and accountability. Our point of contention is on the issue of the institutionalizing of the church – not how it functions within the framework.
You’ve said, and I’ve heard many others say that “form doesn’t matter.” I question this notion (and anyone can respond to this – it doesn’t have to be between you and me). I have been to too many churches that claim to be “doing it right” only to find that sooo many of the foundational elements of the institution have remained intact – yet it’s essentially doing church “my way” or the “way I like”. The foundational elements of the institutionalized church – especially the western church that most of us function within – are what I’m questioning. You won’t find verses to back up the institution as we’ve come to know it because they don’t exist – that is, it’s not biblical. A study of church history, world history, European history, colonialism, the rise of the nation state, and so forth is required to put today’s institution into its appropriate context.
Short of that, here are some thought provoking [hopefully] questions (for anyone):
When did the corporate gathering become a spectator sport where the ‘flock’ passively sits and listens to the ’shepherd’?
When did it become the norm to purchase a building for the purpose of fulfilling the corporate gathering? What happened to meeting in people’s houses?
When was celebration of the passover reduced to an assembly line distribution of a crouton and a thimble full of grape juice?
When and how did the corporate gathering for worship come to be called “service”?
When did the local church stop caring for the widows and orphans? (biblically – 33% of a churches income should be exclusively devoted to the poor)?
When did the pastor become the paid professional? and when did the congregation decide to check their personal pursuits of a relationship with God for a relationship with the institution?
Why are their people that affirm themselves as “Methodists” or “Baptists” or “Calvinists” or “Pentecostals” rather than simply identifying their allegiance to and relationship with the Christ?
When did it become acceptable to fly the nation’s flag within the building we use for corporate gatherings?
When in history did the church decide it was prudent to align itself with the existing form of government rather than “fly under the radar?” When in history has that proven to work out well for anyone?
hey – I don’t mean to hijack your blog. I’ll repost this over on my blog. we can continue the discussion here, or take it up there.
Again, these questions are for anyone to respond – not just directed at Brent.
Love that your provoking this 🙂
The corporate gathering between believers was never meant to be “sit and listen”. There is heavy implication in Paul’s teachings that all should encourage and exhort and speak. At our church we have made this a part of all the gatherings we have focused on the believers. We meet in small groups and mid week studies every week and this takes place. Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach, so it takes on the flavor of “sit and listen”. Jesus was one to teach in a “sit and listen” fashion. Sharing application adn parable to lead people to the truth. Our weekends are like this.
I remember hearing once that churches are the worst businesses in the world. Why would you pay so much for something that sits empty 6 days a week. We’ve made a point of using our facility 7 days a week. Does this justify it? No. But we fell comfortable with the decisions we’ve made to both provide a place for people as well as head out into the community. I also don’t believe that the “in house” thing has anything to do with it. We are called to gather, I’m not concerned where that happens. Money to me is not the issue. To much emphasis is put on money.
Not sure I’ve ever seem the Lord’s Supper as this. Communion for me is a beautiful and special time. Whether it’s juice and wafers or bread and wine means nothing to me. the Savior i worship and celebrate is why I partake. And I live by “as often as you gather…remember”, so we partake every time we gather.
I don’t know, and I really don’t like that name. it makes no sense to me.
Not sure they’ve stopped. Perspective? We are doing it and many I know are as well. Also, it’s interesting that widows have to be over 60 and in need to even be cared for. That would count out many of the widows we know here. But we care still. Not sure this is the priority of the institution though. I think it’s the priority of the people. We shouldn’t rely on the institution to do the ministering. 33% is a great number, but Paul says give it all to whoever is in need. Again, that burden is on the people…leaders included…not the institution.
Paid professional? If pay makes us professional than…in 1 Timothy 5. Again, perspective? I think there are many that rely on the institution but many don’t. I say many, cause that’s what I see. I don’t have a relationship with my institution, I have a relationship with the people in it and the God we serve. That would include anyone that I cross paths with. Whether they attend a weekly service at my local church or not. This is the way i am as well as the other leaders I work with. We are purposeful in leading our church to think and act beyond our walls. Because our walls truly don’t even exist.
I agree. Drives me nuts. Sends the message that “we have it right”. We have no denominational allegiance or stance at our church.
Has nothing to do with anything in this blog, but Deb will probably ban me for life for being disrespectful for this same comment at her place. I have absolutely no idea what she means by ‘respectful’ but i have an idea.
“b4d,
‘Peter was a flake.’ That explains quite a lot, believe me. I don’t know if the rest made sense, because I skipped it. It your starting point is that the inspired author of a portion of Scripture ‘was a flake’, no matter how ‘nicely written’ the rest may be, it would seem somehow irrelevant. Reading it through the eyes of faith might give you a more favorable opinion of Peter. No offense intended.
no offense taken. Two questions:
1. Where do you get the idea that I do not have a favorable opinion of Peter?
2. Have you read the Gospels?
Peter was a flake, Paul was neurotic, Thomas was a skeptic, they were all egotistical and self-centered. Jesus took a bunch of messed up guys and transformed them into world changers.
I find that highly encouraging since I identify with so many of those character flaws.
“First, this is Peter’s writings. Peter was a flake. (all Scripture is God-breathed, but I look long and hard at Peter’s writings and try to consider the conduit in which God’s message was conveyed to us).”
1. Your phraseology suggests it..and yes you do tend to be a little verbose and rambling. Whatever any of the gospel writers’ human limitations might have been, ‘God breathed’ and they wrote exactly what He wanted them to write. “All scripture is God-breathed, BUT. . .” indicates you agree that it is God-breathed, but has faults/is not relly enerrant.
2. Yes.
My whole point with Deb and with anyone, actually, is that the plain language of the Bible takes precedence over what I might feel about it. What I might think is the Holy Spirit, sometimes is just my flesh. Go here and read the comments.
http://cpk3.wordpress.com/2008/07/28/a-wedding-christ-providedblogged-bible-study/#comment-243
that should help you understand what I was trying to say and probably screwed up. I think ck got it and he clarified what I was asking Deb to clarify and got accused of playing God.
Dan, I agree that the what God says in His word takes precedence of feeling, emotion, or thought, period. The reason I said this:
“You are not going to change me, or stop me from loving all people, accepting them where they are and loving them to where the Lord directs….you are not God. Stop acting like Him.”
is because God is the only one who can change me…I am and imperfect person trying to reach imperfect people and show them a perfect God. Your comments are judgemental….borderline accusatory..do you really think when you say things like I’m sitting in crap in a diaper and such, that I will listen to anything you have to say? I’m willing to discuss anything, especially when it comes to scripture, and I still am stumped as to what part of my blog entry was unscriptural to begin with…
I think we both may be having difficulty hearing each other at times. You ‘hear’ what you would have meant if you used my words and vice versa. I ‘heard’ your ‘accusation’ with the backdrop of your entire comment, not just that little bit. My apologies for that one, then…
And by the way, I never had any intention of changing youn nor was I trying to stop you from doing anything…
I apologize to you as well……honestly…anything else you said in that comment went by the wayside after reading that part….and I’m sure you felt reprimanded as well…from now on, I’ll ask more questions of you if I need something clarified…fair?
Uh, Bad? thanks for being a neutral ground…LOL
Sounds like a good plan…and ditto……
hey – no worries! I’m at the Extreme and Kings X concert. Extreme will start in a few minutes.
Deb and Dan – why don’t you guys take a run at the original questions in this post. I’m interested in seeing your perspectives.
(Kings X r0X0r’d btw!!!!)
Ya! What they said 🙂
Wow Bad…have fun…ok…this will take awhile but I’ll give it a shot…
“When did the corporate gathering become a spectator sport where the ‘flock’ passively sits and listens to the ’shepherd’?”
Hopefully never…what purpose would it serve?
I Corinthians 14:26, 40:” What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification…but let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner?”
In this passage Paul, dicussing church meetings, told the church that each one should come prepared with a psalm, a hymm, a revelation or a teaching…As far as I can see, God wants us to bring the riches that we have found in Christ to the meeting and celebrate, as it were, with our brothers and sisters…it’s much harder to do than to go to a traditional church meeting on Sunday morning, when the pastor preaches and the program is set.
The problem is, all you have to do every week is show up. Which causes people to not have to spend any time in preparation for what the Lord would want you to share or bring to the meeting…in the meetings of the first century, everyone was responsible for bringing something of Christ to make the meetings rich.
From what I can find, Christians didn’t start using special buildings for meeting places until the fourth century under Constantine when the pagan temples were turned into Christian cathedrals. From what I’ve read the first 300 years of church history Christians met in living room sized groups. Ok, hopefully that covers the first two…I’ll be back 😉
B 😆
I’ve had a hard time with corporate worship these days. The most beautiful times of worship I have experienced have been in small groups, where we are intimately known to one another and can pray for each other.
All that to say, I do also love to go to our new building and participate in the large community singing together and hearing a gifted speaker break open the Bread of Life.
whew. long weekend. I still haven’t caught up on all these posts, but I will attend to it this evening.
Michelle – our favorite times of corporate worship tend to be concerts or the gatherings at the main stage at Cornerstone Festival. Having the opportunity to build authentic and intentional relationships – and then sharing everything as you have need, yes! I believe that is what it’s all about.
I gotta pass on the invite, but thanks….